Curse

Carinae · Jun 05, 2009, 07:55 AM // 07:55

I'm not comparing Racway, as I'm running a Sin not Paras, and my heroes aren't Rac's either. If you want to set rules to the comparison that's fine but they need to be clear cut from the get go. (If I had brought 5 humans, yea, it would be fair criticism but....)

H/H only?
2-man?
Actual combat build?
PvE skills?
Consumables?

My only real beef in this thread was traversc's grandiose claim that a MM outdamages ANY physical, a claim which several people scoffed at.

When I run number he says, I wrong, I'm a liar. When I post Master of Damage scores, it's irrelevant. Or he baits-and-switches and says "No, no I meant a human MM not a Discord hero MB" when he's coming from a post talking about Discord. And then demand I admit I'm wrong when he's posted nothing more than his opinion and a series of "Nu-uh".

I posted numbers, I posted MoD scores and builds. He's posted 'numbers' he pulled from thin air and are CLEARLY incorrect. He's posted no builds, no scores, and made no 'rules' about H/H-only or 2-man (He's discussed both) squads. He won't commit to anything. It's like I'm talking to an astrologer: "Thing will happen today for you".

upier · Jun 05, 2009, 08:05 AM // 08:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

You contradict yourself in only a few sentences. A MM will absorb so many hexes/conditions that would otherwise bone over your team and slow it down to a crawl. No hex/condition removal is even close to capable of the mitigating power that a MM has.

Even still, a MM will ALWAYS out-DPS a single physical, so your argument that you don't take it slow with no MM is pretty backwards, considering the above and also that you're missing out on one of the biggest DPS sources in the game.

If they are absorbing hexes and conditions - they aren't doing damage.
And if they are doing damage they:
1. aren't absorbing hexes
2. the hexes they are absorbing aren't slowing them down, meaning they wouldn't slow down party members either

The hex overload I mentioned is going to be stuff like massive slowdown hexes, stuff that makes one miss and Soothing Images. That's what I want to remove before engaging into the next battle. Other than that ... meh.

How much time did you spend playing physicals? Because I really don't understand why anyone would take it slow when playing one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

The point is, you were NOT ALONE. Your friend did help you out by buffing you up. Also you should really try that exact build configuration in actual combat.

The goal isn't to get the maxium number possible from the Master of damage. The goal was to find out how much DPS a TYPICAL form of the build can generate, otherwise we would be using Volfen Bloodlust with MoP and fiends just to win in the numbers game. That is not going to prove anything if the build is not practical in actual combat.

I wouldn't be bringing the "not alone" argument into play when dealing with minions.

Daesu · Jun 05, 2009, 08:41 AM // 08:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

If they are absorbing hexes and conditions - they aren't doing damage.
And if they are doing damage they:
1. aren't absorbing hexes
2. the hexes they are absorbing aren't slowing them down, meaning they wouldn't slow down party members either

Rubbish. Why can't a minion absorb a hex and still do damage. So you are saying if a minion is hexed, it can't invoke death nova and deal damage anymore when it dies?

Quote:

The hex overload I mentioned is going to be stuff like massive slowdown hexes, stuff that makes one miss and Soothing Images. That's what I want to remove before engaging into the next battle. Other than that ... meh.

Good luck making your heroes target the right hex to be removed.

Quote:

How much time did you spend playing physicals? Because I really don't understand why anyone would take it slow when playing one.

Just cast Empathy, SS, and VoR on them. That should slow them down.

Quote:

I wouldn't be bringing the "not alone" argument into play when dealing with minions.

So you finally admitted minions give an unfair advantage.

upier · Jun 05, 2009, 09:20 AM // 09:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

I still dont understand what are you saying? So if a minion is hexed, it can't invoke death nova and deal damage anymore when it dies?

DN is pretty darn random.
It's not THAT uncommon for a full blast of minions to die miles away from any target.
And if the minion dies - there goes your super dooper minion DPS.
And of course - if you want minion DPS, you want Fiends. And Fiends won't explode in someone's face. You do both - your DPS drops, your bombing capabilities drop and the wall doesn't work as nicely. (Well not to mention that this guy probably won't excel at his bitch jobs due to his spamming of high cost skills. SR gives just relatively unlimited energy.)

What I was trying to say is that hexes will slow down minions even more then they slow down the party (due to their stupid AI, they won't get cleaned, massively less hp and armour, ...). That means if the party would get slowed down - minions would get slowed down even greatly. And if the minions do not get slowed down - the party certainly doesn't get either.
Now on the other hand - if the minions fail at attracting hexes - that means you still need as much cleaning abilities as you would WITHOUT minions. But, to bring that much cleaning when you are bringing minions does not make sense BECAUSE you are bringing minions in the place of those abilities.
That's why I am arguing that minions do not really make sense. They provide benefits that aren't really needed and they don't provide the benefits when you need them the most.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Good luck making your heroes target the right hex to be removed.

They do not get removed. You are stuck with those. And, like I said, that's the thing that will slow you down because you want to clear that before going into the next battle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Just cast Empathy, SS, and VoR on them. That should slow them down.

We are dealing with PvE - and the things that slow you down are the things that PvE foes cast on you. Not only are the things you listed uncommon - they are also just a bit of damage. Stuff like Soothing Images, Shadow Of Fear or Blurred Vision (or movement slowdowns when playing melee) - now that's going to be a bitch.
When it comes to damage hexes - you just attack through it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

So you finally admitted that minions give too great an advantage.

I mean for the fact that the minion master will be a minion-less master if he doesn't have the rest of the team to score those first kills so that he can actually actually RAISE his army.

Daesu · Jun 05, 2009, 03:54 PM // 15:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

DN is pretty darn random.
It's not THAT uncommon for a full blast of minions to die miles away from any target.
And if the minion dies - there goes your super dooper minion DPS.
And of course - if you want minion DPS, you want Fiends. And Fiends won't explode in someone's face. You do both - your DPS drops, your bombing capabilities drop and the wall doesn't work as nicely. (Well not to mention that this guy probably won't excel at his bitch jobs due to his spamming of high cost skills. SR gives just relatively unlimited energy.)

That doesn't make any sense at all. Most Fiend MM would also bring melee minions, especially if they intend to minion bomb. It is alot more common for melee minions to explode in the front lines and a hexed minion can still deal damage despite your claim.

Quote:

What I was trying to say is that hexes will slow down minions even more then they slow down the party (due to their stupid AI, they won't get cleaned, massively less hp and armour, ...).

That depends on the hex doesn't it? And even if it is a slow down hex doesn't imply it MUST explode far from any target or not be able to deal a single point of damage.

Quote:

That means if the party would get slowed down - minions would get slowed down even greatly. And if the minions do not get slowed down - the party certainly doesn't get either.

Maybe it is not an AoE hex or maybe only 1 minion get imagined burden but the others are ok?

Quote:

Now on the other hand - if the minions fail at attracting hexes - that means you still need as much cleaning abilities as you would WITHOUT minions. But, to bring that much cleaning when you are bringing minions does not make sense BECAUSE you are bringing minions in the place of those abilities.

Or maybe they do not fail at attracting hexes and that argument of yours just fell part?

Quote:

That's why I am arguing that minions do not really make sense. They provide benefits that aren't really needed and they don't provide the benefits when you need them the most.

And maybe they do make sense.

Thanks for the exercise in refuting your "maybe this and that" argument.

Quote:

We are dealing with PvE - and the things that slow you down are the things that PvE foes cast on you. Not only are the things you listed uncommon - they are also just a bit of damage. Stuff like Soothing Images, Shadow Of Fear or Blurred Vision (or movement slowdowns when playing melee) - now that's going to be a bitch.
When it comes to damage hexes - you just attack through it.

Why would this be a bitch if I have a mostly caster team with hex removal? Soothing Images is useless against minions and Shadow of Fear/Blurred Vision are useless against death nova.

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I mean for the fact that the minion master will be a minion-less master if he doesn't have the rest of the team to score those first kills so that he can actually actually RAISE his army.

The first kill is usually simple. And a minion can be raise from either dead enemies or dead allies. Either way, unless the MM is weak and dies first, the MM would get his minions.

This argument is going no where. Why dont you show that a good racway build can achieve better results in an area like Vloxen HM?

AtomicMew · Jun 05, 2009, 09:15 PM // 21:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

My only real beef in this thread was traversc's grandiose claim that a MM outdamages ANY physical, a claim which several people scoffed at.

So basically, you're just going to disagree with everything I say because you're still sore from the discordway thread?

Quote:

when he's coming from a post talking about Discord. And then demand I admit I'm wrong when he's posted nothing more than his opinion and a series of "Nu-uh".

There are only a few things I have demanded that. These are not things that relate specifically to discordway, but are simply fundamental issues of honesty and fairness. Address these explicitly and apologize if you want any hope of credibility:

1)When I run number he says, I wrong, I'm a liar. When I post Master of Damage scores, it's irrelevant. Or he baits-and-switches and says "No, no I meant a human MM not a Discord hero MB"
+
You make grandiose claims about MM damage, clearly involving a human MM (10 fiends, OoU, EbSoH) and then reverse course and compare that to a melee HERO.

I have never mentioned a human MM nor have I mentioned EBSoH. You either can't read or are just lying to make your argument look better.

2) You stated that a physical can outdamage a MoP nuker. Even Moloch, a strong advocate of physway disagreed with you. I know you have since acknowledged this fact, but why should we take you seriously when you can't even admit you are wrong and simply try to push it under the rug?

There are many more instances of your outright dishonesty, but I CBA to sift through all your posts.

upier · Jun 05, 2009, 09:51 PM // 21:51

I don't want to get into the rest of the reply because I don't think we are talking about the same thing:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Why would this be a bitch if I have a mostly caster team with hex removal? Soothing Images is useless against minions and Shadow of Fear/Blurred Vision are useless against death nova.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10254869
What "mostly caster team"?

Daesu · Jun 05, 2009, 09:56 PM // 21:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

I don't want to get into the rest of the reply because I don't think we are talking about the same thing:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10254869
What "mostly caster team"?

I was under the impression that we were comparing racway against triple necro since racway has no MM anyway.

If we are talking about triple necro with a MM, then it is a "mostly caster" team. It is fine to hold on to your own views but this cyclic theory crafting is pointless to continue. Just show us a video of how your physical H/H team clears Vloxen HM so we can compare.

upier · Jun 06, 2009, 07:46 AM // 07:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

I was under the impression that we were comparing racway against triple necro since racway has no MM anyway.

I think I specifically mentioned a few times that the team is a physical heavy team that you'd add a necro (in this case a MM) to.
That is why I am so anti-minions. The wall comes from the physicals with their shiny armour. If on the other hand we are dealing with casters - then the wall makes sense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

If we are talking about triple necro with a MM, then it is a "mostly caster" team. It is fine to hold on to your own views but this cyclic theory crafting is pointless to continue. Just show us a video of how your physical H/H team clears Vloxen HM so we can compare.

I am going to need the hench selection that will help me clear Vloxen HM with Sabway - because currently I am unable to do it. And since the good thing about Sabway is that one shouldn't have to bother with optimizing the bars - I am guessing I went with the wrong hench.
Para primary - currently Imba.
(Or should I be funning Discord - without a hex and a reliable condition on the caller?)

The group before the boss gate on level 1 overloaded me with hexes because the wall didn't attract them. And that meant the end of my Imba.
And then we died, next time there was no wall, and all the hexes went on me.
And soon we got kicked out with 60DP.

(My physical heavy team got through that - because I simply tanked them.)

AtomicMew · Jun 07, 2009, 06:12 PM // 18:12

Upier, so we are supposed to take your word that your "physical heavy team" no problem got through vloxen HM... with no video, screenshot or even any idea what your build actually is?

faraaz · Jun 08, 2009, 03:40 AM // 03:40

Not to mention the fact that considering Upier has been a proponent of the Physicalway build, skill with either build (or lack thereof) might be a factor? For instance, although I have tried it, I can guarantee that I will handle the discord/sabway build better than the racway build because I have more experience with the former. I'm not saying "lol upier nub", I'm just saying, different strokes for different folks...know what I mean?

Snow Bunny · Jun 08, 2009, 06:06 AM // 06:06

Racway was designed for use with TNTF and SY. It doesn't work well at all without them.

upier · Jun 08, 2009, 09:00 AM // 09:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Upier, so we are supposed to take your word that your "physical heavy team" no problem got through vloxen HM... with no video, screenshot or even any idea what your build actually is?

Absolutely not.
I didn't get through it.
What I am telling you is that I got further and easier with a physical team. I didn't run Racway - but a modification which still has to be modified. The problem is that the guy is relatively new - he just completed C3 and he has next to 0 GWEN skills and also very low title tracks - so I am still missing out on goodies like the damage ward. Luckily for Sabway - that shouldn't be an issue.
Whereas Sabway had EXACTLY the issues I brought up earlier - I got overloaded with hexes which the wall failed at attracting, the wall failed and after that we failed. And after rezzing - there was no wall. The build contains no hex removal at all - which meant there was no way for me to tank the guy outside of becoming completely and utterly useless PLUS I had minions which were supposed to tank. And well, they kinda weren't doing much damage.
The minions added tanking capabilities that I didn't need, they didn't add damage that I needed and they took spots on the skill bars that could have been used for stuff that was needed - stuff like hex removal.

So I am guessing that a right selection of hench would negate all these issues.

AtomicMew · Jun 08, 2009, 09:57 PM // 21:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

...the wall failed at attracting, the wall failed and after that we failed. And after rezzing - there was no wall.

You realize, everything you just said is not really an argument against minions or a MM in general, right?

What you described is simply how minions work. Minions contribute to your team far more than a single physical, but by nature it is only a temporary boost. Usually, the fight lasts short enough that the mob dies before your minion wall does, and then the MM simply raises more minions, rinse and repeat.

Against tough foes, multiple healers, rezzers, etc., (i.e. vloxen) it's possible that your minion army will fail and then yes, you will probably be screwed.

speedy21589 · Jun 08, 2009, 11:41 PM // 23:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Against tough foes, multiple healers, rezzers, etc., (i.e. vloxen) it's possible that your minion army will fail and then yes, you will probably be screwed.

Isn't that exactly an argument against minions? That, in tough areas, if your minions wipe on one group, then there's a good chance you might be stuck for good, because you depend too much on the minions to soak up damage, hexes, etc.? I don't see how the temporary "nature" of minions can't be considered as an argument against them.

AtomicMew · Jun 09, 2009, 01:54 AM // 01:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by speedy21589

Isn't that exactly an argument against minions? That, in tough areas, if your minions wipe on one group, then there's a good chance you might be stuck for good, because you depend too much on the minions to soak up damage, hexes, etc.? I don't see how the temporary "nature" of minions can't be considered as an argument against them.

Yes, I'm aware that it might not always be a good idea to take a MM, for example when there are no corpses, or when there are strong,multiple healers. The original topic was about general PvE which diverged into Vloxen HM with H/H. That's another topic, and it's pretty irrelevant to the point I was making.

Re: general PvE

"MMs are primarily meant to speed things up NOT necessarily make a sturdier build."

Generally speaking, if you are able to beat an area without a MM, a MM will only make things faster, due to absorbing damage and hexes (reducing the amount of heals needed) and also outputting fairly high DPS. In PvE, speed is a very important factor. If you don't think speed is important, the logical conclusion of your reasoning is to take Echo Ebon Sniper and hit and run everything while never experiencing any threat at all. Clearly, that's retarded.